Texas School Board does Right thing….


Freedom is not free. It is never more than one generation away from extinction. It always has to be fought for, because there are always enemies of freedom, fighting vigilantly against it, in the name of individual freedoms and larger government.
-Robert Garding-

This morning, in an Associated Press article, we found out, that Texas schoolchildren will be required to learn that the words “separation of church and state” are not in the Constitution, and will evaluate whether the United Nations undermines U.S. sovereignty under new social studies curriculum. I say hooray for this new requirement.

It has long been known that our schools are full of teachers, who, as liberals will push their agenda’s on our kids, trying to make a new generation of Liberals. And I know that there are a lot of us Conservatives out here who can cheer this decision to try to put a stop to they’re stangle hold on our future.

Most all of can remember or place it in our heads the times that we have heard of teachers around the nation trying to push this stupid “separation of church and state” bullshit as actually being something that is in the Constitution of this nation. It isn’t folks, and do not let any liberal tell you any different, because if they do, they are wrong.

The term “separation of church and state” was never in the Constitution and was never meant to be in the Constitution. That is one of the many many liberal lies that have been told by the liberals in our land, that only wish to see the Constitution destroyed. And the bad part about this my friends, is that they are persistent little buggers. If they lose a battle, they do not give up, as we do, they head back to the drawing boards working on the next assault against this country. We Conservatives, when we win a battle, figure the war is won, and we go back to living our lives again, enjoying the fruits of what this country gives to us. Our freedom to live life as freedom loving Americans. But not the liberals.

It is like I have said in a blog post a short time ago. We have a complete and separate life to live. The liberals don’t. Their life is assaulting this nation, under the guise of Social reform that on the surface sounds good, but in reality undermines the very fabric of freedom that this country was founded upon. And too many Americans are forgetting that fact.

Texas has been the firestorm of controversy over the last month mainly because of them being audacious enough to want to enforce the federal laws, and making a state law to do just that. People from all over the world are condemning Texas for passing this law, and the stupid part of it all is, our government is listening to these people. People who have no right in the world to tell one of our states what laws they can and cannot pass. Parents of all walks of life, should be very cautious of any politicians trying to force their ideals on school curriculum. Trouble is, this has been going on for generations now, and only now are the state governments beginning to see the damages done to our schools.

And of course the democrats are up in arms about this. Saying things like: “I am disturbed that a majority of the board decided their own political agendas were more important than the education of Texas children.” That was said by San Antonio democrat Representative Mike Villarreal. What he is really upset about is, that the republicans are taking back this country in Conservative fashion. They do not like this because they know they cannot win in that arena of ideas unless they lie. And brother, they are among the best at that.

This is not to say that this law is a completely good one. They have not gone the right direction in several areas, like replacing Thomas Jefferson as an example of an influential political philosopher in a world history class.

The article goes on to say this: In one of the most significant curriculum changes, the board diluted the rationale for the separation of church and state in a high school government class, noting that the words were not in the Constitution and requiring students to compare and contrast the judicial language with the First Amendment’s wording.

Students also will be required to study the decline in the U.S. dollar’s value, including the abandonment of the gold standard.

The board rejected language to modernize the classification of historic periods to B.C.E. and C.E. from the traditional B.C. and A.D., and agreed to replace Thomas Jefferson as an example of an influential political philosopher in a world history class. They also required students to evaluate efforts by global organizations such as the United Nations to undermine U.S. sovereignty.

Former board chairman Don McLeroy, one of the board’s most outspoken conservatives, said the Texas history curriculum has been unfairly skewed to the left after years of Democrats controlling the board and he just wants to bring it back into balance.

I have a feeling that this kind of legislation is going to be sweeping this nation soon, just as the Texas immigration law has done. And the government? They just won’t know how to deal with it. Mark my words. The liberals are at a loss. And it’s time we kept them in that arena of ideas. Being lost is not a conducive path to winning. The Republicans found that out in the last two elections. Didn’t we?

God Bless America, her troops, her allies and her people
God Bless my readers, my listeners on BTR and my viewers on You Tube….

-Robert-

About Robert P. Garding

I am a Reagan Conservative, who is very alarmed at the Liberals who have just lost their majority over our government, but continue to act like it never happened. They have to be stopped. NOW or even sooner.
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23 Responses to Texas School Board does Right thing….

  1. Angel says:

    the tide is turning indeed!..private school and home school is the only real solution for many.. Hope ya had a great weekend my friend!:)
    Reply from Robert: Turning is true. I am starting to get excited about this next year. I only hope and pray that the American people do not fall back asleep like they always have before. The Liberals expect that we will. I pray we don’t. I know I won’t.

  2. Edisto Joe says:

    Texas has brought forth the issues in textbooks for public education and presented a much needed overhaul, however a much larger overhaul is needed in the public education arena. Our tax dollars feed the largest leftist propaganda organization in the country. Even with the changes Texas proposes in the history books, there is no reason to believe that teachers will follow the book in teaching the course. Many know less about American history than the students they are teaching. They prefer to cover up facts with their own personal agenda. The sad truth is that many they teach will never read the book anyway because they either don’t know how to or choose not to.
    reply from Robert: I totally agree with you on that Joe, but it has to start somewhere, and Texas is just as good a place to start as any. Texas by the way passed about the same immigration law Arizona did, only they did it years ago…..and have been enforcing it. Arizona is now not the only one with the law, as about 20 other states, including Indiana, where I am living that has in the works a similar law. Good things start small……if they are good enough, they don’t stay small. That is my hope with this law in Texas. It is good enough. And a great place to start. We can hope and pray that it doesn’t die on the vine there. And knowing Texas like I do, I feel it is a law that will be enforced.

  3. Seane-Anna says:

    What Texas has done is certainly a step in the right direction but I have to agree with Angel. Private and homeschooling are the only real solutions to the problem of liberal indoctrination of our children. But for those who must put their kids in public school actions like the ones taken by Texas will make things a little easier. Parents will still have to be vigilant, however, as the liberals will ALWAYS be looking for ways to inject their ideology into the schools. All conservatives, parents and non-parents alike, can never let down our guard in the protection of our kids.
    reply from Robert: You are right, it is a step in the right direction. But things can’t start big when everything has been completely opposite of that for decades……and it’s bigger than we think. It isn’t being reported by the media….yet many states are getting in the act…..

  4. Adam says:

    Do you have any idea how silly you all look?

    Before I begin, let me state two things up front. I am not a liberal. There was a day when I considered myself a Republican but that was before I decided that I would use my own head and not let others think for me. I’m probably more Libertarian but only because the Christian right hijacked the party. Second, I almost never post in these kinds of forums. I was doing some research for my own blog and this thread came up high in the search results. I haven’t been this amazed since I stumbled across a creationist forum a couple of years ago.

    Do you know what the result of the Texas School Board decisions really is? Backlash. It isn’t from liberals, it is from conservatives that are horrified by what you are all doing. And you think that there is a motion sweeping the country? Are you freaking kidding me? Most of the people I know are conservative and they can’t fathom the desire to rewrite the history books with outright lies. You’re bastardizing your kids futures because you think you are making a point to liberals. Huh? That is essentially chopping off your toe to spite your nose. At what point can people get back to what conservativism really is. It is small government, low taxes, and the maximum amount of liberties. That is it folks. This kind of jingoism is dangerous, as is the desire for a theocracy. And you think that there is a motion going in this direction? You need to get out of Texas for a bit to see how the rest of the country sees it.

    Have any of you read anything about the founding fathers? They were deists. Not Christians, although when push comes to shove they had to declare themselves as such because it was political suicide not to (as it is today). But you don’t have to read too far between the lines to see how they really felt. Jefferson talked about his disdain for religion in general and holy men in particular. Washington sometimes went to church but always left before communion. Franklin often spoke out against organized religion. I know what many of you do – you find a site that lists a bunch of quotes out of context and you run with it (the best example is a quote from Jefferson in regards to the Danbury Baptists). Do your own work. Pick up Jefferson’s autobiography and hear him in his own words. Hell, he went on to found the first secular university in the world. In the world!

    Our constitution and the rights guaranteed in it are the words and ideas of the great men of the enlightenment period and not on Christian principles (religious texts almost always restrict liberties, not give them). Our fathers recognized the dangers of theocracies and went out of their way to protect us from such tyranny. And that is exactly what every theocracy has brought us throughout history.

    The words “separation of church and state” do not appear in the Constitution. So freaking what? Church is clearly and effectively separated from state in the Constitution – who cares how it is phrased? What you are missing is that this protects you and me as well as the government. In the period before the Constitution was drafted in 1787, states began to officially adopt different Christian faiths. What makes you think that your faith would be the “official” one? Our fathers saw this practice and went out of their way to stop it and that is their great gift to us. They saw what theocracies had done to science, reason, liberties and free speech in Europe and wanted no part of it.

    You know what isn’t in the Constitution? God. I know what some of you are screaming – “he’s mentioned in the Declaration”. Sure, he is. That was a bone that they threw to some of the southerners in the group. A motion to substitute Jesus was quickly shot down. Once again, the word “God” is used as “Creator” and not the God of a particular faith. Also, the Declaration is not in any way a legal document.

    This kind of jingoistic behavior is the last thing that our fathers would have wanted. Jefferson stated many times that the worse kind of patriot is the one that stands by and does not question. We should constantly be challenging authority and willing to rebel when necessary. Being a loyal, unthinking flag-waver is the farthest thing from what they had in mind.

    Don’t take my word for this. Don’t go to a liberal or conservative site to get your info. Open a book and read. If you are suspicious of the biographer’s motives, read an autobiography. But by all means read and have educated opinions.
    reply from Robert: I suspect that you are more of a crytoleftist, rather than a libertarian. You say your libertarian because that’s more palatable a label than liberal is. And I think that is true about a lot of libertarians. All you want to do is enlist the Founders in your own war against Christianity.
    You talk about Jefferson and what he did. But you failed to bring up the things he said. Like: “I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” Any man who is a deist, would never swear upon the altar of God now would they?
    One of the things that I have noticed about you and people like you who have to come in and tear a belief apart, is that you look though everything that someone we quote has done, and you find the one thing that he or they have done that could be interpreted to fit your ideals. You, in your long comment, didn’t convince me of anything but that you are just what I started this reply out with. YOU ARE A CRYPTOLEFTIST. Which is a person who is secretly a leftist, while claiming to be Conservative or Libertarian or something else, to hide what they really are. Does this fit you?

  5. You’ve done it again. Amazing writing.
    reply from Robert: Thank you.

  6. Seane-Anna says:

    Adam, you wrote a long comment here, a post really, and I’m not sure where to begin my response so I’ll start by asking a question: Are you an atheist? I ask because you rant on and on in your comment about the dangers of religion and theocracy, and you repeat the Big Lie that all the Founding Fathers were deists who shared your obvious bigotry against Christianity. Well, all the Founding Fathers were NOT deists and they NEVER intended the Constitution to be used as a justification for Christophobia and anti-religious bigotry in general, as you seem to think.

    It never ceases to amaze me how deophobes like you, Adam, constantly rail against theocracy while ignoring the utterly inhuman horrors of organized, official atheism. Atheism in power murdered more human beings than any theocracy ever attempted to kill. Nikolai Lenin called for the use of “protracted brutality” in the effort to stamp out religious belief in the Soviet Union. The Soviet state jailed and executed clergymen, bulldozed churches to the ground, eradicated parental rights, and abolished freedom of speech and press all in the effort to free people from religion which was supposed to result in enlightenment and liberty. It didn’t. And this tyranny wasn’t limited to the USSR but darkened every nation where official atheism took root. And when it was all over close to 100 MILLION men, women, and children had paid with their lives to establish a Godless utopia.

    Adam, the most brutal tyranny in history was Godless tyranny. If you are the freedom-loving conservative you claim to be you should be totally committed to the separation of atheism and state. It is the coupling of Godlessness with state power–and the corresponding belief that rights come from the state and not God–that has been the great bane of humanity. Adam, the Founding Fathers did NOT believe in marrying atheism to government. They were NOT anti-Christian bigots. They believed that our rights were endowed to us by our Creator. If you want to be true to them in letter and spirit then you’ll discard your Christophobia and adopt the pro-Christian attitude of those men whose faith was so evident in their political actions that it caused a British MP at the time to quip, “Cousin America has run off with a Presbertyrian pastor.” Not the kind of thing that would be said of a bunch of deists, now would it, Adam?
    reply from Robert: Bravo Seane Anna. Bravo. You put it better than I did. I love this answer.

  7. Adam says:

    Well thank you for the reply. Yes, I absolutely am an atheist. More specifically, I am a secular humanist. But as someone who cherishes liberties, I consider the right to worship as you wish just as important as any other right and thus I wish to protect it.

    I’ll repeat what I wrote in my original post. You’re just regurgitating stuff that you have seen on other sites. It could not be more easy to spot because it is so historically inaccurate. Stalin was not a religious man but he had no problem using the Russian church for his own uses. That is no different than the legions of holy men that used their own church to enslave people, start wars, muzzle free speech, etc. And as always, that is the only example that people come up with (and a poor one at that). You and I can both name dozens of wicked acts done in the name of Christianity. You reference the holy men that were imprisoned by Stalin. So what? What about the centuries of tyranny brought on by Christianity? Hell, they imprisoned other Christians for not being the right kind of Christian. The secular movement is comprised of both believers and non-believers that recognize that religion has no place in government.

    What you missed in my post is that I was not attacking Christianity. My issue is the complete rewrite of history that Texas Republicans have performed in the name of advancing their political beliefs. It is sad. You know what? Unlike the Texas school board, I welcome the truth. I’ve read dozens and dozens of books on the founding fathers (including their own biographies). If you have some knowledge that I am missing, please my friend, share it with me. I will gladly welcome the knowledge. It was… curious… that your only evidence to back up your claim was a statement made by a British MP. So what? Once again, they voted God, Jehovah, Jesus and every other messiah out of the Constitution. That is the ONLY proof that you need. I vague reference to the creator in a non-legal document (the declaration) does not move your belief forward one bit.

    Better yet, why don’t you point out the parts of the Bible that tell us about your liberties? I’ve been studying the bible for years – I’ll save you the time, they aren’t there. In fact, the bible clearly tells us that we are not to rebel against authority. If so our fathers were not good Christians. As an aside, the Bible also tells us that the eagle was one of God’s mistakes – how ironic. You can’t name one wicked act done in the name of Godlessness, but we can each name dozens done in the name Christianity.

    But back to the point… just where are all of these Christian writings of our founding fathers? I will be happy to point you to any number of their books to back up my statements. Better yet (and I mean this sincerely), I ask you to pick up “The Rights of Man” by Paine or any number of the books written during the enlightenment. It is there that you will see the same writings as you find in the constitution.

    I’m not asking you to give up your beliefs. I’m asking that you recognize that you’re poisoning the minds of children by not telling them the truth. If you read up through the comments you see nothing about the truth, you just see references to getting back at a different political party. That is sad.
    reply from Robert Me poisoning the minds of children? I think it is the other way around here. YOU are the one poisoning the minds of children.
    I do not give a flip about a political party. Both of them have done they’re damage to this great nation. Democrats and Republicans. Which is why I consider myself a Conservative. It just so happens that right now the Repbulicans are the ones that seem to be more concerned with the well being of this great nation.

  8. Adam says:

    One more thing that I want to make clear. None of the acts that you mention were done in the name of Godlessness. “Godlessness” is not a belief system. If I hate something, I can’t pull out justification for my act. As Susan B. Anthonyj (a devoute Christian) once said, people’s religious beliefs always coincide with their likes and dislikes. Stalin did what he did on his own and not in the name of hating God. I’ve never heard the term “deophobe” before – that implies that I’m scared of religion?

    What I can tell you is that secular humanism has been fighting bigotry condoned by the Bible for centuries. It was there 200 years ago when the bible told you how to treat your slaves. It was there 100 years ago when the bible told you that women were possessions. It is amazing that the Texas School board chooses to embrace these times.

    As I said in the previous post, I’ll gladly check out any resources that you can give me. I hope that you choose to do the same to find the truth rather than what your party tells you to believe.
    reply from Robert: Yes, I think that you are afraid of religion. I think that you are afraid of God. Why else would you do everything you can to try to find reasons to make religion the BUTT of everything good and decent? I have been disturbed by people like you all my life. They insist that religion be taken out of the public arena, but also insist that they’re ideas be put in. Changing one set of beliefs for another one. Christians for the most part don’t want that. They feel that they have the right to worship anywhere they want…..just as you feel that you can UNWORSHIP anywhere you want. Well, go ahead. unworship anytime you want. Just stop trying to force me to. I would rather worship my God, than take the chance of destruction by pushing Him away as you so want everyone to do.

  9. Seane-Anna says:

    Adam, it’s late so I’ll make this quick. For someone who claims to be appalled by tyranny I find it disturbing that you’re so casually dismissive of the inhuman tyranny of Stalin and the other Godless dictators. Could it be that you’re writing them off because you can’t blame their horrors on religion? Could it be that you’re trying to protect, even at the cost of egregious intellectual dishonesty, you’re utterly bigoted guiding principle that religion is the source of all evil?

    Adam, it’s fuzzy logic to say no evil has been committed in the name of atheism because atheism isn’t a belief system. Atheism IS a belief system. And even if it isn’t it’s a foundational principle of belief systems that have committed murder on an inhuman scale to create a Godless utopia.

    Adam, you can’t guarantee liberty by rejecting God. Unbelievers can be biased, bigoted, prejudice, and intolerant like anyone else. They can and have used the force of the state to suppress religion and impose atheism on others. And if you had the power, I believe that you, Adam, and most other secular humanists would do exactly what the Soviets did. The mask of tolerance would come off the face of virulent anti-theism would emerge in all its violent ugliness. If there’s an Inquisitor lurking within every believer, there’s a Stalin lurking within every unbeliever. I can control the Inquisitor in me. Can you control the Stalin in you, Adam?
    reply from Robert: Adam, I couldn’t have said this better myself. I can also control the Inquisitor in me. But unlike just asking like Seane Anna did….I don’t think you can control your Stalin.

  10. Adam says:

    Sean-Anna,

    Why take the second banana in WW2? Lets go for the top dog. Hitler was a Catholic and if you do a quick google search you’ll have no problems finding references to the Church blessing him right up until the very end. After all, much of his motivation came from religious beliefs. There was only one “murder on an inhuman scale” in WW2 and it wasn’t Stalin. Better yet, do some reading on WW2. What the German army did to the Russian people was the second largest atrocity in that war.

    And once again, you choose to pick the tired Stalin example rather than taking on any of the challenges that I layed out for you. That’s fine, I’ll play along. Did Stalin abolish some forms of religion? Sure, he did. There are countless times where Christians did the same – what is your point? Better yet, look at the first European settlers to this continent. Who were they running from? The persecution from other christians. And I’ll say it again – Stalin didn’t abolish all religion. He recognized that he could use the Russian Orthodox church to support his positions. This is no different than what countless holy men have done just that. And I’ll say this again – before our secularist founders banned religious preferences, the states all picked their favorite flavor of Christianity. If this had not happened you might very well would not be able to practice your faith in your state.

    Let me recap this. I can point to countless examples of Christians imprisoning Christians and non-Christians for heresy, but the first time a borderline atheist (Staline studied to be a priest and it is fairly unkown if he ever fully renounced his beliefs) we’re supposed to be worried about non-believers? That’s hypocrisy, my friend.

    You are in fact 100% right about one thing – atheists can be bigots, war mongerers and downright nasty people, just like anyone else. As I said, atheism is not a belief system. What it doesn’t do is give someone the excuse to be a bad person because a text written for illiterate Middle Eastern tribes when we didn’t know why it rained condoned a bad behavior. Stalin can take responsibility for his own crimes. I’m amazed that you find solace in the fact that Christianity in general (and Catholicism in particular) condoned what Hitler did.

    Better yet, lets talk facts (something you left out of your post). In the last couple of centuries, where are all of these other atheist troublemakers? Look at Europe – they are largely agnostic and very peaceful/prosperous. Do a quick google search on the agnostic countries in the world and you will find that they are all peaceful nations. Why is that? Because unlike what you read in the bible, we’re smart enough to know that war and bigotry and hatred is bad. Here’s a little secret – you are too. There are many wicked, terrible things that are condoned or demanded in the bible. You know not to follow these orders. Welcome to secular humanism.

    Finally, lets get back to the topic at hand. I layed out several challenges to you that went completely unanswered. Our constitution was written based on the ideals of the enlightenment era. The ideas in our constitution were largely taken from men like Paine. So who fought these ideals? Christians, of course. Just as they had fought men like Galileo and just like they would later fight Darwin. You can take your ad hominem shots at me. You claim to have the truth on your side in the school board issue – lets have some facts to back up your claims.

  11. Adam says:

    Robert,

    Am I afraid of religion? I surely am and history supports my position. What you fail to recognize is that you are as well. At the end of the day you and I are no so different. There have been thousands of religions since we evolved into what we are today. You and I both discount 99.99% of them. As it has been said many times, I went one God farther. When you see how you discount the thousands of religions that you discount, you’ll how I discount your religion. I do not discount the possibility that there is a creator, I discount your religion.

    Better yet, what about me disturbs you? I’ll say it again – I completely support your right to worship as you wish. If someone was trying to take away your right to worship, I would be standing next to you in that battle even though it is something that I do not believe. I don’t own a gun but I do in fact believe that is also a core right in our country. That is principle, my friend. Your statement about me wanting to force my “unworship” on you shows the arrogance of your position. After all, in this topic it is someone like you forcing your beliefs into the public arena and not the other way around. The desire to teach facts is not being anti-Christian. If they do happen to contradict the Bible, what can I say? That is your burden, not mine. If you want to teach your kid that the Earth is 6,000 years old I’m sure there are plenty of schools in your state that will accommodate you.
    reply from Robert: First off. I do not force my beliefs on anyone. If they don’t want to know about them, they don’t have to come here. Plain and simple. That is a fact that has been totally lost in this country today. People decide that they do not like something so they ban it or want it banned, when in fact, all they have to do is not look in that direction. Problem solved.

    I right now do not own a gun, but, I am in the process of getting one because I do believe it is my core right to own one, something that Obama and others are trying to take away from me. Religion does not scare me. What scares me are the people who decide that they have the right to take my rights away from me. The liberal left in this country and a hell of a lot of athiests do too. So, in you, I stand corrected. I am glad that you are not a part of that.

    And I’ll lay down a challenge to you. Please skip the generalities. My reason for responding to this thread is that the Texas School Board did was obscene because it is rewriting history. The odd thing is that it isn’t even trying to cover up the darkest hours of our country, it is trying to further a religious belief. Our founding fathers CLEARLY did not want this to happen and went out of their way to write the constitution in such a way that it wouldn’t happen. I’ll ask you again – please give evidence to the contrary. This debate really is quite simple.

    And finally, you make the claim to be a conservative. Putting religious belief in front of other ideals is not being a conservative. Once again, do the research. Take a stroll out to the conservative party’s website. You will find everything that I mentioned before – smaller government, less taxes, more liberties. You will not find a mention of religion as that is a Christian-right Republican plank.

    reply from Robert: Heck if you look at it that way, every position in the world should scare you because every position in the world has it bad points. Some much worse than others but still every one of them has it’s bad points.

    I do call myself a Conservative, but not because of my religion. I feel that those who place their beliefs above mine and then force me to abide by them are worse than me talking of my beliefs. When they force their beliefs on me, I have no choice but to accept them or fight against them. With me talking of my beliefs, if you don’t agree with them, you don’t have to come here. Problem solved.

    What scares me, is not religion as you say, but the people who will force they’re unbeliefs on my life and family, and expect me to follow suit with them. If I don’t, there will be consequences. That is the big difference. If you don’t accept my beliefs, there are no consequences…..not in this life anyway.

    I am glad that you are not one of those people who want to force your beliefs on mine, but by the same token, I am not forcing mine on you. You are right, I believe that it is a core right to own a gun, and like you right now, I do not own one, but, that is going to change in the near future, as I have a right to bear arms and protect my family and I. I am glad that you are not one of those who will force your beliefs on me, but there are so many who will. And they use their power in government and yes even the Pulpit at times to do that. I will not allow that in my life….and will fight against it till the end if need be.

    The things that scare me, are the people, like Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and the rest of the liberals in government who have decided that it is their right to take my rights away from me because they think I am too stupid to do the right things, or because I wish to love America and protect her. Religion does not scare me. Only big government does…..and of course the enemies of the United States.

  12. Seane-Anna says:

    Again, Adam, I find your reply late so my reply will be somewhat short.

    You touched on a lot of things in your reply. The main theme I detected was your virulent bigotry against religion in general and Christianity in particular. And yet I’m sure you would fervently deny such bigotry if someone asked you in person. As I said in my previous reply, your guiding principle is the belief that religion is the source of all evil. You rant on and on about faith causing or condoning wickedness but when I point out the great evil committed by atheists you insist that atheism had nothing to do with it because atheism isn’t a belief system and, therefore, can’t inspire anyone to do bad. Again I say, FUZZY LOGIC.

    A religious person does something evil and you hype it till the cows come home because it fits your anti-religious prejudice. But let an unbeliever do something evil and you down play it because it doesn’t support your anti-theistic paradigm. Your views of Hitler and Stalin illustrate this. You make Hitler out to be evil incarnate because you think he was motivated by Catholicism and you can use his demonic acts to smear ALL religion. On the other hand, you dismiss the mass murders of atheist Stalin because they’re useless in your campaign against faith.

    And make no mistake about it, Stalin was an atheist and he enacted his murderously tyrannical rule to advance an atheistic ideology. Or do you deny, Adam, that communism is fundamentally anti-religious? If so, you should read Marx’s “The Communist Manifesto”. You should read the writings of Lenin. You should read W. E. B. Dubois’ autobiography where he writes that the effort to eradicate religion is one of the things humanity had to thank the Soviet Union for. And you should read the Soviet constitution. It’s there, NOT in the American Constitution, where you will find the phrase “separation of church and state”. You’re not the only one who reads, Adam.

    Adam, I’m not dodging your challenge. I readily admit that there were deists among the Founding Fathers. The problem I have with you and most other secular humanists is your attempt to make ALL the Founding Fathers into deists and to write Christianity and Christians out of American history. The Bible and Judeo-Christian philosophy were profoundly influential in our nation’s history. Jefferson, Paine, and Franklin were deists, but other Founders such as Benjamin Rush and first Chief Justice John Jay were devout, orthodox Christians who brought their faith into public life. Adam, do you believe that children shouldn’t be taught about Rush and Jay, or that their Christian faith should be censored from textbooks? I think you do believe that, Adam.

    I think you and your fellow humanists are actively working to censor and rewrite history. I believe you and your fellow humanists have a Marxist/Soviet view of religion and religious freedom. That is, I believe you view religion as a dangerous, retrograde force which must be curtailed by the state as much as possible. Portraying the Founding Fathers as hostile to religion is an attempt to give your own anti-theistic hostility legitimacy. Unfortunately for you, Adam, many of the Founders were not only NOT hostile to faith, they were devout Christians themselves. Adam, I’m afraid you’ll have to look elsewhere for an affirmation of your bigotry. American history doesn’t give you one. Get over it.

    PS

    And what’s this slanderous nonsense about Christianity condoning what Hitler did? I guess anti-Nazi pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Holocaust-defying Christian Corrie ten Boom, and Sir Winston Churchill, who said that the war against Naziism was a war to save Christian civilization, didn’t get that memo. Please, Adam. Get your history straight.

    reply from Robert: Again Seane Anna….I couldn’t have put it better. But, mark my words, Adam wont get it.

  13. Adam says:

    Robert, once again, you make completely baseless claims about people forcing their beliefs on you. Where is that happening other than with Christians trying to force beliefs on you? If you are inferring that people try to uphold the LAW by banning religion from public places, you’re in the wrong. This very thread is an example of people trying to force a religion on people by rewriting history. Once again, trying to tell the truth in this matter is not pushing anti-theism on anyone.

    And this country has always had a struggle with people trying to force the Bible on the rest of us. Once again, it condoned slavery, misogyny and the hatred of gays. Now that we’re almost past all of that, people completely forgot about those dark times. And for the record, I’m really not trying to bash Christianity here – let me make that clear. It just saddens me to hear people re-write history when it doesn’t need to happen.
    reply from Robert Baseless? I beg to differ with you. What is it when someone who is an atheist, forces prayer out of schools. Or becomes part of a group to remove a cross on a hill in San Diego, because suddenly, after so many years after it was erected for a Momument to American soldiers sacrifice in Korea suddenly offends someone? Those are concrete examples of atheism being forced on the population against their will by the way. All I can say is…..get over it. If you wish to believe God doesn’t exist, go for it. I do not care. But I believe in God and always will. And I believe that I have the freedom to worship and talk about God as I see fit. If you don’t like it, then like me, you have the right to not come here and read, just like I have the right to not go to an atheists site and read there. And since I don’t read that, it doesn’t bother me. What does bother me is when my rights are ignored by someone of a different belief than mine, and yes, atheism is a belief because an atheist believe God doesn’t exist and doesn’t have to be worshiped. That is your right, but it is also my right to worship Him and talk about him. So like Seane Anna said….Get over it. In my world, God exists, and I am not ashamed of that fact.

  14. Adam says:

    Seanne-Anna,

    I spent quite a bit of time on Stalin. The difference is simple – there is no atheist platform. You can’t point to some doctrine and say “that belief condones an evil act”. If an atheist performs and evil act he did so on his own volition. If a Christian performs an act that is condoned or demanded in the Bible, he can say “well I was commanded to do so”. Worse, he believes his sins were already paid for by a scapegoat. If I perform an evil act, I (like Stalin) can stand alone with my actions and that is the way it should be.

    And I’ll re-state what I said in my earlier post. You said that Communism was anti-religious and for some reason this is the crime of all crimes in your world. But what you really mean is that Stalin was anti-Christian. After all, as I said earlier we can both name tens of instances where Christianity did the same to other religions (or disbelief) – why aren’t you listing those examples? And once again, Christians did it to other Christians in europe and that caused the first European settlers to come to this country. That is no different than what Stalin did. And for the record, read any of the Pope’s recent speeches on his tour of the agnostic countries of Europe. He has no problems warning against the “dangers” of agnosticism.

    I can’t fathom why you think that I am an anti-theist. As I said to Robert, I completely support the right to worship as you so choose. I’m just asking that you look at history as it happened and that we uphold the laws (NOT change them). Anti-semetism was an official catholic church doctrine until the 1960’s. He was regularly and publicly blessed by bishops until the very end of WW2. Please, do not take my word for this – look them up. My bigger point with all of this is that you point to one leader in WW2 (Stalin) that did terrible things (and he did) and thus atheism is dangerous. But in the next breathe you complain that I referenced Hitler as being a monster that wasn’t even in the same universe as Stalin and you tell me not to paint Catholicism in a bad light because of one man? That’s hypocrisy. Once again, Hitler’s actions were condoned by the church. You can’t say that of Stalin and that is my point.

    I see that you started to get a little hostile in the part about the founding fathers. There really is no need for that. Once again, you took what I said and ran with it. I did not say that our founding fathers were all deists. They clearly were not. What I said is that the liberties guaranteed to us in our Constitution came from the ideals of the Enlightenment era. Period. And once again, that is why the school board’s decision is so heinous. I’ll say it again – I welcome you to point out where I am wrong on this. If you can not (and you’ve chosen not to), you must recognize that what the school board did is wrong.

    The ironic thing about your post is that you warn me not to do the exact same thing that you are condoning. What you are missing here is that I have no agenda other than to have history taught accurately. I have no problems telling kids that Rush and Jay were devout Christians because it is historically accurate. I also think it is important to show that Darwin was a devout Christian and that he sat on his book for 20 years because he knew it would crumble Christianity. On the flip side, I don’t see you rushing to emphasize how southern evangelicals used the bible to condone slavery, nor do I recall reading about the stripped-down bible that Susan B. Anthony wrote (she stripped out all the misogyny). I’m not the one arguing to change the history books. I’m also not looking to paint one belief system in a bad light while propping up another.

    You say “I think you _____” several times in your posts and what follows is always incorrect. I’m happy to tell you exactly what I think – just ask. I do take offense to the statement that I’m probably one of those people that hide behind a keyboard. Actually, nothing could be further from the truth. You can find a link to my website in this thread and there you will see several letters to my local paper written under my name. I regularly participate in public debate with Christians about religion. You know what we do afterward? We have a couple of beers. While I think the world would be an infinitely better place without religion, that is not to say that I *hate* it or that I’m even trying to convert anyone (never have). My goal in my own beliefs are simple: it is to show misinformed people like yourself (and you are clearly misinformed when it comes to disbelief) that we can in fact come up with a better way to get along. And believers make up much of this humanism movement, which is great – I welcome them. But to do this I need to conduct myself as a gentleman, even if I am in an anonymous forum such as this one. That doesn’t seem like much, but when I read reactions such as yours to my lack of belief it does seem like a lot.
    reply from Robert: It is like I replied to Seane Anna. Her examples what what you say here didn’t work, did work. And like I said to her, You won’t admit it.

  15. Adam says:

    Actually Robert, everything you’ve said in this thread has been baseless. I take that back, you are right when you say people “forced” organized prayer out of schools.

    Here is what you are missing. You are equating the the removal of prayer from school with your rights being infringed upon. They aren’t. Not having organized prayer is not even close to saying that you cannot pray in school. You can pray anywhere you’d like to pray – school or not. But by telling me that I have to then pray next to you and that the prayer is going to be organized – that is forcing your beliefs on me. Once again, this isn’t about rights – it is about trying to force religion into public life. The absence of religion in public life is not a strike against your beliefs. Santa Claus is also absent – is that a strike against him? Thankfully our founding fathers were wise enough to separate public life from religious life. And I’ll say this again – this was also done to protect the various religions from government interference. It baffles me that people like you do not recognize the other side of that coin. If we were a theocracy, your beliefs might be outlawed by the current holy men in charge.
    reply from Robert: I love how you can tell me what I am equating my reasoning about. The thought of removing prayer from school really never crossed my mind, except that it was one part of everything that has happened over the last 50 years that has done just that. And yes, I have lived those 50+ years and can think back over my life and see just how many of my rights have been taken away by the liberals in our government. And those freedoms also include my ability to worship as I see fit. You can see that happening with what is going on in Israel now. Israel did nothing wrong. They were protecting their sovereignity from people who were not respecting their right to have that blockade. They pushed and Israel pushed back….and now the world is condemning her for it. And for what? Doing the right thing. Everyone is trying to take Israels’ right to exist away from her and Ahamadinejad even said so. Rights have been gradually taken away from the people for generations. it started out slowly, so we wouldn’t notice what was going on. But now they do not care. They are brazen and open in what they want to do, from making energy so expensive that no one can afford it….to making us worship the way they want. It is coming………

    Be an atheist, I don’t care….but we have big problems here in America, and having our right to worship or not worship as we see fit is a big part of this.

    Better yet, I’m going to call you out on something. You claim to also be a man of principle. You’re all for the constitution when it suits your own likes (gun rights, for example) but you play these kinds of games when it comes to things that you don’t like. That is not being principled. My position is not based on being an atheist, it is based on the Constitution. You all speak as if I have advocated the banishment of religion or that I’m even arguing against the accuracy of the bible (this isn’t the forum for that). I have clearly stated that I would fight to protect your right to worship. I just don’t want those rights pushed on me. If you want organized school prayer, I’m protected from that. You can pray in silence all day long and that proves that it really isn’t about prayer. Hell, I’m even ok for a two minute segment where people can pray silently if they want to. Once again, that isn’t good enough for you and that proves it isn’t about prayer.

    And finally, your statements about Sean Anna proving points are laughable. I’m supposed to take a random quote from Churchill as proof that Hitler wasn’t a Catholic that was following official Catholic doctrine? You’re right, that is VERY convincing. I can point to centuries of Christians doing the same things that so offend you about Stalin. I’ll say it again – these are the claims made by people who troll Christian message boards and haven’t done the work themselves. If you did you wouldn’t need to rely on obscure quotes to make silly claims.

    Better yet, neither of you have refuted any of my numerous points about the original topic. It is much easier to say “a-ha” to the obscure quote and then blame me for not being convinced by it.

    And oh by the way – if you’d do a little more research (a common problem in this thread) you’d know that Churchill’s religious beliefs were murky at best. What we do know is that he shunned organized religion and often spoke out against people’s fixation on the afterlife and organized religion. And you tell me to know my history? Please.

  16. Seane-Anna says:

    Adam, you are the biggest and most arrogant bigot who’s been here since a guy named Jason. I’d forgotten how you people operate since Jason stopped showing his libtard face here, but you show up and now I remember what fun those such as you are!

    Adam, you twist everything to make it fit your virulent anti-religious, and especially anti-Christian, hatred. And yes, you DO hate religion and Christianity. Ever since you came here you’ve done nothing but rail against faith. You’ve repeated ad nauseum your bigoted conviction that religion is the only thing that makes people bigoted, racist, misogynist, intolerant and makes government tyrannical. And when I give you an example of a Godless leader who tried to stamp out religion in his country and slaughtered people by the millions to do it, you shrug it off because it doesn’t fit your blame-religion-first mentality. Savage tyranny and the murder of millions are just footnotes in history to you when you can’t blame it on theocracy. You are obsessed with theocracy. But let me ask you this.

    What if a country outlawed the teaching of religion to children? What if a country confiscated religious property–churches, temples, monasteries, etc.–and turned them into warehouses, museums of atheism, or just bulldozed them to the ground? What if a country created a GOVERNMENT FUNDED organization committed to spreading unbelief? What if a country made getting the best jobs contigent on not believing in God? I ask you Adam, if a country enacted such policies as these what, in your mind, would be the motive? Are you really going to insist that such anti-religious policies don’t have their genesis in rabid atheism? Are you really going to cling to your nonsensical notion that because atheism doesn’t come with a book of “thou shalts” and “thou shalt nots” it can’t motivate people to do evil? I think I know the answer to those questions but I’ll wait for your reply.

  17. Adam says:

    Sean Anna, your replies have less and less merit every time you respond.

    First, and most importantly, there was not even a hint of the topics and the challenges to the topic at hand (again).

    Better yet, name one instance in this entire thread where I have suggested that Christianity be stomped out. Just one – that’s all I’m asking. You can’t, because I haven’t. That makes the rest of your post another ad hominem attack on me. That’s fine, I’ve seen it done before (and much better).

    Besides, if you had read my posts just a little bit closer you will see that at several points I said I was a staunch believer in the freedom of religion. Where was that not clear? See my challenge in the previous paragraph.

    And something else that you missed (have you read any of my posts?). I came right out and said that because atheism is not a belief system it can not claim to be a motivation for good or evil. How much clearer can that be? Just as government should not be in the practice of favoring a religion (these words are in our constitution), it should never be anti-religion either. You and I are both protected by that.

    And you sadly go back to the Stalin card even though you (again) won’t recognize that he did nothing more than what countless Christians have done. And once again, I’ll point out that the biggest mass murderer in history (Hitler) was following the doctrine of the Catholic church. Stalin was not following some atheist doctrine because there is no atheist doctrine. By your logic, since he did not believe in unicorns we must blame his disbelief in unicorns for his actions. That’s the nice thing about not following texts written during the bronze age – if I do something terrible I can’t blame it on anyone else. You’re the one that follows a book that not only advocates bigotry and hatred but shows it in use. I am not. But let’s pretend that atrocities like the Inquisition never happened. I can point to doctrines that you follow that support and even demand all of the atrocities that have been done by Christians – can you say the same of your one and only target? No, you can’t.

    And oh by the way, the writer of the great work that most directly influenced the writings of the Declaration and the Constituation was written by an atheist. As it turns out, the liberties of man are a threat to religion.

  18. Adam says:

    Robert, I don’t know how I could have clearly laid it out. You do not have a “right” to organized prayer to a Christian God in school. I’ll say it again – what you really mean is that Christianity is being thrown out of public places. And I’m not being anti-christian by saying that. My point is that you would go bonkers if your kid then had to sit through a Muslim prayer (or worse, an anti-theist thought), just as I wouldn’t want my kid to go through stuff that is not taught at home And that’s why it is just that – taught at home. There is nothing anti-religious about a secular education. To think otherwise really displays an arrogance that reflects the Christian entitlement that infiltrated this country up until the last few decades. It isn’t that your rights have slid backwards. Our court systems have finally caught up with the law. The only way that a civilized society can exist is if you teach your kids your religious beliefs at home and I’ll teach my kids my own beliefs.

    And for the record, I completely agree with your statements on Israel. And who is at fault for that? Well other religions, of course. I don’t walk around with the belief that they killed my lord (which is ironic because he was a Jew). It seems we keep expecting religion to play nice and then we’re surprised when texts written 2,000 years ago and meant for illiterate desert people condones terrible behavior (memo to Sean Anna – I’m a bigot for pointing out this FACT? Sorry, that is lame). Yet you suggest that the cure for that is more religion? That is where logic and history are tossed out the window.

    I think the sadder part of this whole conversation is the complete lack of understanding of our history. I believe Sean Anna to be a female based on comments that Robert made? If so, 100 years ago women in this country were trying to have the Christian influences removed because they advocated the misogyny that made women second class citizens (read Susan B. Anthony’s memoirs to get a clearer picture of how this happened. Or better yet, pick up the abridged bible that the suffregetes drafted. It stripped out all of the misogyny). Yet a mere hundred years later we forget those struggles. Not even 150 years ago black americans had the same struggles. We have this naive idea that now is a terrible time in history and that things were better at a different time. Never mind the practices condoned by your books – I’m the bad guy for pointing them out.

  19. Seane-Anna says:

    Adam, you are not only a bigot you’re the worst kind of bigot: one who is TOTALLY blind to his hatred and intolerance. You’re like a David Duke who rails against intergration, for example, but then has the nerve to act shocked that anyone would think him a racist. You, Adam, rail against religion, blame it and ONLY it for ALL the ills of mankind, then have the nerve to act shocked that anyone would think you a virulent anti-theist. This is why I don’t believe your assertions that you believe in freedom of religion. Yes, Adam, I read them. I just don’t believe them. Why should I?

    Why should I believe your claim of support for freedom of religion when you believe religion is nothing but pure evil? Freedom FROM religion? Yeah, I believe you believe in that wholeheartedly. But freedom OF religion? No way. Based on your rants, Adam, I have ZERO confidence that, given the power, you wouldn’t enact the same anti-religious laws and policies of the Soviet Union and all other communist countries. The only reason you and your humanist cohorts currently pay lip service to the idea of freedom of religion is because it’s expedient. But let the right circumstances coalesce and the humanist bulldozers will be out in force.

    Adam, I don’t say any of this to be difficult. I sincerely believe this based on what you’ve written here. I find it absolutely jarring that you spew out vitriolic, anti-religious diatribes then expect me to conclude you’re not an anti-religious bigot. Adam, I don’t make ad hominem attacks on you. Rather, I call you what I truly believe you are. I’m sorry if you think I’m wrong. I await your reply.
    reply from Robert: I have been waiting to see this. I agree Seane Anna. I was thinking along the same lines but couldn’t get myself to write it. You did it better than I could anyway. Thanks.

  20. Adam says:

    Ah Sean-Anna, more of the same. Rather than taking me up on a single one of my challenges, you fall back on this lame and incredibly weak rhetoric.

    Here is a news flash for you. That vitriolic person that you just described is you and I’ll be happy to prove it.

    You say that you doubt my statements about freedom from religion, even though you have no reason to do so. That’s fine, I’m not asking you to believe me (and I have no reason to lie to you – it isn’t like I’m on a job interview). But where the hypocrisy comes in (yet again) is that you say that you don’t trust someone like me because if I got into power that I might try to force my beliefs down your throat. The amazing thing is that people of your belief are in power and they are trying to do just that to me. Once again, people like you and Robert claim to be principled until someone does something that you didn’t like. And the proof is in the pudding – your biggest complaint about Stalin is that he jailed Christians, yet you have no problem when people of other beliefs are jailed. I’ll ask you again – where have I said a single thing about Christianity that isn’t true? I’ve spoken on a historical basis at every turn. There has been only one person in this conversation that has broken out the “people like you card” and that has been you. That is bigotry.

    And let me make one more thing perfectly clear. My beliefs (or lack thereof) are not the reason for my position on any of this. The law is the law and the constitution is the constitution. It is funny that you try to project what I’d do and your biggest fear is that I would do what you are doing now. Also, at no point did I put down your beliefs or even belittle them. I was merely responding to your statements about Stalin. I’ll say it again – there are more hateful things in the book that you read on sunday than in any other book I know. That isn’t opinion, it is fact. Stalin did what he did because he was an awful person. Countless Christians have done the awful things that they did because it is condoned and even demanded. Why don’t you counter these claims rather than make ad hominem attacks? We both know the answer to that. And listen how you completely twist my words around. At what point did I say that religion is the basis for all evil? I merely acknowledged that I am an atheist, that’s all. You took that and ran with it because you are in fact the bigot here. I rail against things condoned in your belief system and you rail against me personally. Very telling. I don’t know a single atheist that agrees with what Stalin did, but the very topic (the school board rewriting history) shows how Christians wish to glorify slavery by propping up their role in it. Yet you cling to your one single example that proves nothing of atheism. Once again, there is no atheist doctrine.

    And quite frankly, you should be embarrassed. One hundred years ago you wouldn’t even be allowed to participate in this kind of debate. Why? Christianity, of course. The bible says you are a possession (in the ten commandments no less). It contains scores of other tales of misogyny (I do have to give it one thing – the bible was a copy of other misogynistic religions that pre-dated it. Women were really icky during the Bronze age). I didn’t make that up, your God made that up. If you don’t like it, don’t blame me for being the messenger here. It was people like me that fought for your rights. If you call that lip service, wow, I don’t know what to tell you. Susan B. Anthony is spinning in her grave right now (right along with our founding fathers).

    I understand where the vitriol comes from. People are starting to see religion for what it really is – a means to control people. It isn’t a coincidence that there have been 10,000 or so Gods. It isn’t a coincidence that the number of people that claim to be agnostics has gone up every year for 10 years in this country. That’s a good thing. As it has been said, today’s religion is tomorrow’s literature. And just as our constitution protects me today, it will protect you tomorrow. Nobody is going to try to ban religion – at some point it will just shrivel up. We know better now, thanks to science and reason.

    And Robert, you are allowed to think for yourself here. I issued several challenges to you and I see that you wished not to reply to any of them.
    reply from Robert: It seems no matter what we say to you, it is always more of the same, so I want to say to you God Bless you and May God help you to see the things that you are missing. I will pray for you in Jesus’ name. Because our founding fathers were believers in God. You can see that in the documents they wrote, you can see that in the things that they said. As for the challenges you gave me, I prayed about them, and God told me not to respond to you on them….because they were wrong. So, I followed my higher power on that. I didn’t respond. As for religion shriveling up ……keep on dreaming that…because it won’t.

  21. Adam says:

    Ok Robert, I came here for an intellectual conversation and found none. Notice that the first reply back to my initial post was to inquire about my religious beliefs. There wasn’t a thought of tackling my arguments on their merit (you played the religion card, not me. My argument here wasn’t about religion, it was about facts and history). I’m sure you’ve already headed off to another forum where people won’t challenge your ideas and that you can live in your fantasy world about where things can be as you like them to be instead of what they really are.

    The ironic thing about you choosing to shut off your brain to what has been made clear (about our fathers, that is) is that many of our fathers were men of science and intellect. Their writings are clear – they are our founding documents. I just finished another biography on Jefferson. His friends begged him to come out as an atheist at the end of his life (something his political rivals used againt him all the time). Instead, he founded the first secular university in the world and that was far more important. As Franklin famously said in his guide to living, a lighthouse is far more useful than a church.

    Your closing again reminded me of Anthony’s quote: people’s religious beliefs coincide with their likes and dislikes. You wanted out of this argument so you asked your God and then you/he gave you permission to take the easy way out. That is a perfect example of how silly it is to pretend that an atheist is far more dangerous than a religious believer. I can only stand on my own with my own beliefs, morals and intellect.

    The funny thing about this thread is that I really didn’t even go after the truthfulness of your religion (I didn’t need to). Did you know that the virgin birth narrative, betrayal and resurrection stories were first introduced by Luke and Mathew? In case you didn’t know, none of the alleged gospel writers (we have no idea if these people even existed) knew the alleged Jesus. They heard the stories second hand. Luke and Mathew were the last two to be written – 60 to 100 years after the “fact”. That’s right – these core aspects of your belief system just magically materialized decades after the earlier writers must have just forgotten about them. Don’t take my word for it – pick up any number of pro-Christian books and watch them try to tap dance around these facts. Worse, watch them try to explain away the complete lack of evidence that your man even existed. You’re a Christian because of where and when you were born, plain and simple. Somewhere in the middle east there are two people having the same conversation – one a person of reason, the other a fundamentalist muslim. And it will shrivel up – it is already happening and the polls show it.

    With that, I will also tap out. I won’t put on some condescending hat and pretend that I am going to ask some parental figure to take care of you. I have more respect for you than that. And for the record, I meant every word I said about supporting the right to worship. Most of my friends are Christians – people are good because of who they are, not what they believe or not believe. I wish people could think on their own rather than always wanting to dogmatically support some group (and I’m not even talking about religion here). I mean really, look at the position that it put you in. You ended up arguing a point that you couldn’t defend in any way. What does that tell you? As one good Christian once said when talking about fundamentalist belief, I can’t fathom that God gave me a brain and didn’t intend me to use it. I believe he was quite right about that.

    Good luck to both of you.

  22. Seane-Anna says:

    Adam, I see you ended your latest comment here with, “Good luck to both of you.” By “both” I’m assuming you’re including me in your good luck wish. That’s surprising to me in light of the way I’ve hammered you here these past few weeks. Even though you’re a bigot–yes, I still think you’re an anti-Christian hater–you’re not, it seems, totally devoid of decency. I attribute that to the fact that you really believe you don’t hate Christians or any religious people in spite of the fact that everything you said here about belief and believers was pregnant with disdain. But I won’t rehash all that as it will get us nowhere. You have your opinions and I have mine and neither one of us are going to budge. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree (although I’m right and you’re wrong. *ss*). Good luck to you too, Adam. And I really hope that even if you never change your mind you will, one day, open it. See ya.
    reply from Robert: Good reply Seane Anna.

  23. muchgooder says:

    I was notified of a response to this belief today- apparently someone posted spam and it has since been deleted. You hammered me over the last few weeks? Laughable. I provided fact after fact and you provided… well, the baseless rhetoric that is typical of people that don’t know much about the topic at hand other than what they have read on other messageboards.

    And for the record, in many ways you and I are a lot alike. After all, there have been roughly 10,000 religions since the dawn of man. When you say that you are a “believer” you really man to say you are a “Christian believer” and that you, like me, have discounted the 9,999 other Gods. And when you see how easy it is to discard all of the other religions you’ll understand how easy it is for me to discard yours. After all, it is just a poor regurgitation of all of the others that came before it. I don’t feel that way because I want to, I feel that way because – like all of the other beliefs – there isn’t a shred of evidence to say that ANY of it ever happened. That’s why the holy men had to make faith a virtue. That’s the only way to make intelligent people believe stupid tales from when we didn’t know why it rained.

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